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Archdemon

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Posts: 25
Reply with quote  #1 

I wanna run some ideas by you guys.
Im building 1 or 2 Air collectors which will probably be made in a horizontal fashion.
2m wide 1m height, made from polycarbonate plastic.

Steel frame, insulated back and cinefoil as absorber what i was thinking was mounting the cinefoil like a razor, 
so that air is allowed to pass behind and infront but the main benefit is that ill mount the strips in 35 degree allowing maximum efficiency,
the razor design will also compensate for low sun during winter.

Because of the horizontal design would i need more ducts to draw the air into the house?
Maybe combine 3 into 1?

My other thought was to mount Cordirite Honeycomb inside the wall, the wall is 400mm thick,
i could just drop one of those honeycombs in there as a thermal storage,
and add a small lipo to the fan so it would keep going as long as the cordirite keeps a minimum temp.

Anyone tried recycling and reheating the air you already have in the house instead of taking fresh air?

Sorry for the bad english and wall of text.
Ill try to clarify with some images.

http://image.made-in-china.com/43f34j00djUQrJSZrgpv/Cordierite-Dense-Cordierite-Honeycomb-Ceramic-Heater-Ceramic-Honeycomb-Rto.jpg

https://www.livsupplies.co.uk/polycarbonate.jpg

gbwillson

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Reply with quote  #2 
Welcome Archdemon!

Your English is just fine. And we use a lot of slang, abbreviations, acronyms, and solar jargon to simplify conversation. So don't be afraid to ask if you don't know what something is or means.

A single, larger heater will normally be better as it will give you more heat than two separate heaters unless the heating needs are small and in different locations. 

When you say you are considering mounting the Cinefoil like a razor, do you mean folded like a zig-zag or accordion? Having worked with Cinefoil, that would require a lot of precise folds, but it could be done. I would suggest any air flow pass behind the Cinefoil to keep the air away from the cold glazing. You might also consider making tubes out of Cinefoil. Tom posted a good demo on how to form Cinefoil tubes here:
http://simplysolar.supporttopics.com/post/cinefoil-tube-collector-7059555?highlight=making+cinefoil+tubes&trail=10

Thermal storage for a solar heater is normally not a good idea if the storage is inside the collector itself. The collector may run longer at the end of the day, but it will also take far longer to warm up in the morning. But any heat brought into the home is good as it warms every object and surface and slowly cools. 

Many solar heaters will warm the incoming by a specific amount if the amount and speed of the air passing through is constant, regardless of the outside air temp. So if you have 50˚-60˚F temp increase, drawing in frigid outside air won't give you nearly the warmth you were hoping for as trying to warm frigid air is not very effective. So as a general rule the air from a collector DOES come from inside the home. The reason for this is that by taking the intake air from a cool location inside your home, such as near the floor and passing it through the solar heater you will have achieve maximum efficiency. Drawing 60˚F air off the floor and exchanging it with 120˚F air will warm your home incredibly fast. 

Again welcome, and I look forward to seeing and hearing more of your heater(s).

Greg in MN[wave]
Archdemon

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Posts: 25
Reply with quote  #3 
Reasoning for the outside air intake would be that its mounted horizontally to heat a cellar space of 70m2, that way itll heat up the entire house. Will be somewhat problematic to draw air from the floor region without long pipes going down to draw the air in. Looked at the cinefoil tubes and looks very efficient but will there be a loss due to the horizontal mounting?
Rick H Parker

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Reply with quote  #4 

When you say you are considering mounting the Cinefoil like a razor, do you mean folded like a zig-zag or accordion?

Based on his description, I Think the word he is looking for is louver, the blades of a multi blade razor are arranged as a louver. 
In other words what most here would call a pass through. Except he would be using louvered Cinefoil slats instead of screen. 


Anyone tried recycling and reheating the air you already have in the house instead of taking fresh air?

Everyone does. Because for every unit of new air you put into a house an equal amount of heated air get pushed out. That would be a waste of energy.

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Rick H Parker
Kansas, USA
Electronics Engineering Technologist
Archdemon

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Posts: 25
Reply with quote  #5 

Alright fair enough.

Problems im trying to solve is that i have no fresh air intake into the basement i guess ill have to make it passive and just do 1 solar collector, but as i said wont it lose effeciency from being horizontal?

And yes the word i was looking for was louver so i could benefit more from the wintersun and still maintain maximum during the rest of the year.

And regarding the thermal storage, wouldnt it just even out? It takes longer to warm up during the day but keeps going longer during the evening?

Also the storage would be inside the wall between the basement and the collector.

SolarInterested

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Spam Stomper
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Posts: 987
Reply with quote  #6 

The Zen of Passive Solar Heating Panel Design (link)

"Although it should be obvious, I’d like to emphasize as strongly as possible that the goal is to warm the air and not any part of the panel itself – and that in an ideal solar heating panel, only the air would be heated."


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Both temperature rise and airflow are integral to comparing hot air collectors
Rick H Parker

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Reply with quote  #7 
And regarding the thermal storage, wouldnt it just even out? It takes longer to warm up during the day but keeps going longer during the evening?


Some people do thermal mass storage in greenhouses with drums of water. The drums of water soak up heat during the day and release heat during the night. This moderates the the day to night temperature swings. You would need to experiment with the quantity of water to find the best results. I think it could work in a basement.

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Rick H Parker
Kansas, USA
Electronics Engineering Technologist
gbwillson

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Reply with quote  #8 
Passively, you won't get much of a draft upwards in only 3'. Normally collectors have one intake and one exhaust. Sometimes the exhaust air gets split after entering the home to move air into more than one location, and a fan would allow you to do that. And if you are using a fan why not have the intake at one end and exhaust at the other? Might have to rethink the absorber to adapt to the airflow direction, but with a fan, you can have airflow in any direction, including horizontally. So it opens up unlimited collector designs, sizes and shapes. There have been several recent collectors that are 16'-20' wide, or more. Air moved by a fan easily overcomes the natural tendency for warm air to rise. 

Are there any windows in the cellar you could use as an access? My heaters draw air from the basement floor, out through the windows, through the heaters, and back into the basement. I take out the small window seasonally and replace it with an insert for routing the air ducts into the house. The basement warms up, which in turn warms the main floor  All the wood from the subfloor and floor joists act as a heat sink of sorts as wood holds a great deal of heat and gives it back well into the night. It's noticeable warmer underfoot on my hardwood floors upstairs. Your cellar is not that much smaller than mine, so you heating it should warm the main floor nicely too. Are the cellar walls insulated and sealed for air leaks? If not, you will want to do so to retain as much heat as possible.

Greg in MN
Archdemon

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Posts: 25
Reply with quote  #9 
Based on the feedback here ill try to use a system like this to draw Colder air from the floor region.
[KP55-05-stor] 
Same system can be used to transport hot air through the basement.
Problem is that i only have 2m in height in the basement so i wanna avoid anything that decreses that even further.

Would standard 120mm fans suffice to draw air in and blow it out? Thinking 100cfm each.
Another problem still exist tho, which is that i have NO fresh air intakes into the basement whatsoever.

layout.png 
The collectors are in perfect South position, and draw the warm air through the basement mechanically and then draw it out in the bedroom thus spreading it?
Any ideas on design or solutions are welcome.
They will be around 3m long each and 1m height.

Gordy

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Posts: 75
Reply with quote  #10 
Sound like you will have to make holes to run your duct through. What are your basement wall's made out of? Cinder block, poured concrete, mortared stone ect. Is the rim joist area open so you can cut hoes in it? Just in case you do not know the term rim joist, that is where the floor joist's sit on top of the basement walls.

If you have an open basement, I would not worry about duct's to move the heated air around. It will naturally hug the ceiling and spread out.  Ducting adds resistance to the air flow and may require larger fans to move the air.

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Gordy,
Minnesota
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