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kilimar

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Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #1 
I trying to decide on solar and I have questions about costs and equipment.  And while being technically mind, I know nothing useful about solar with regards to practical application.  Below is the scenario.



The price to install a 40 panel system system totaling 11.6 kw DC is $26,026.   This 11.6 kw system installed on the southwest roof assuming very minimal shade will generate approximately on average 1300-1400 kWH per month depending on the time of year (summer or winter), which will offset approximately 80% (normally $200/month avg.) of the energy bill based on the past 12 months of energy usage data. 
The system consists of the following components:

* REC solar TwinPeak 2 290 Watt panels (http://www.recgroup.com/sites/default/files/documents/ds_rec_twinpeak_2_series_rev_e_eng.pdf
* Power Optimizer P-300 DC (https://www.solaredge.com/us/products/power-optimizer#/) at each panel.
* SolarEdge 10000 inverter (https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se-single-phase-us-inverter-datasheet.pdf

Rendering showing the maximum amount of panels that will fit on the roof based on Helioscope software. 
PHOTO (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ecetu20V-Uevtt4TLfidGx9Ulj0na8gd)
(ignore the 4 panels on the side).


+ ~$67/panel SolarWorld's Panels SW300 (https://www.solarworld-usa.com/~/media/www/files/datasheets/temp/sw-01-7506us-plus-mono-wob-290-295-300-prior-9-1-17.pdf)
+ ~$67/panel Mission Solar Energy Panels 300W 60-cell Mono (http://www.missionsolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/MSE-PERC-60_v2.pdf)


The increased price to install SolarWorld or Mission Solar panels would cost $28,694 (= 26,026 + (40 * $66.7))

The whole complete solar package is eligible for a 30% Federal tax credit. 

The payment terms are as follows:
25% deposit
50% payment due upon ordering equipment before installation
15% upon inspection with building department
10% Duke Energy interconnection





These are my questions:
  1. Price, how is it? Expensive? Cheap? Middle of the road? 
  2. How are the panels compared to?  REC vs SolarWorld vs Mission Energy.  Are they three junk?  Information regarding the specific modules listed would be great.
  3. How are the SolarEdge Power Optimizers?
  4. How is the SolarEdge inverter rated?
  5. Anyone have Duke Energy  I know Duke has Net Metering in Florida and it is 12-months rolling - Is Duke is it a continuous rolling credit or is it a 12-month reset at an some anniversary date or calendar date?
  6. Anyone have Amica Insurance -- Does their typical home insurance include solar?  Or is a Special provision needed/required?
  7. While this system does not provide 100% of the energy needed, but if it did and I never owe Duke any money, with Net Metering does Duke still charge the 'Customer Charge' ($8.76) or 'Asset Securitization Charge' ($4.00) per month? 

Let me know if any additional information is needed.

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stmbtwle

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Reply with quote  #2 
You will have to talk to Duke, visit their website, and maybe get a copy of their contract. Read it carefully.

I'm with TECO and here's what I have:

Net metering "rolls" till the end of the year, when it resets and they pay me for any surplus at "avoided cost" (~3c/kwh). This is applied to my January bill as a dollar credit. It is NOT in my best interest to have a surplus at the end of the year.

I still have to pay the "service charge" every month even if I produce a surplus. This charge has DOUBLED in 8 years, while the electricity rate has gone DOWN 10% (certainly doesn't help my ROI).

But then this TECO; Duke may be different.

__________________
Solar is like the wind. It may be free, but putting it to work isn't!
Willie, Tampa Bay
kilimar

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Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #3 
  • Any idea on any of my other questions?  Thanks!


w/r/t Duke's Net Metering:

Thanks.   With your urging, I did a additional web research and it certainly reads like yours, from the Duke Energy's

SECTION NO. IV
FIFTH REVISED SHEET NO. 4.000
CANCELS FOURTH REVISED SHEET NO. 4.000
GENERAL RULES AND REGULATIONS
GOVERNING ELECTRIC SERVICE
ISSUED BY: Javier J. Portuondo, Director, Rates & Regulatory Strategy – FL
EFFECTIVE: April 29, 2013"


Quote:
Energy credits produced pursuant to section 4 above will accumulate and be used to offset the customer’s energy usage in subsequent months for a period of not more than twelve months. After the end of each calendar year, the Company will credit the customer (on the February bill) for any unused energy credits at an average annual rate based on the COG-1, as-available energy tariff.


From https://www.energysage.com/net-metering/duke-energy/

Quote:
Any excess energy generation at the end of the billing month is credited to the customer's energy consumption for the next billing cycle. At the end of each calendar year, Duke Energy credits the customer for any unused net metering credits at an annual rate based on the COG-1 tariff.

The current rate for COG-1 is 6.310 cents/kWh meaning that the customer receives 6.310 cents for each credit not used to offset energy usage during the calendar year. While net metering credits are used to offset energy consumption charges, the customer is still responsible to pay monthly charges not associated directly with energy consumption such as customer charges (currently $8.76/month).




W/r/t the COG-1 rate, for Duke, it doesn't seem TOO bad.  Not Great, of course.  Currently, residential rates at Duke FL:

Energy charge
First 1,000 kWh. 6.933¢ per kWh
All kWh above 1,000 . 8.349¢ per kWh
Fuel charge
First 1,000 kWh. 3.377¢ per kWh
All kWh above 1,000 . 4.377¢ per kWh

- Any idea on any of my other questions?  Thanks!
stmbtwle

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Reply with quote  #4 
One of the things they never mention is that increase in rates above 1000 kwh/mo. Offsetting that saves you nearly 20% more than the lower rate, and of course the high rate is the first to go. Your array may save you more than you think.

For heavy users it could make a big difference.

__________________
Solar is like the wind. It may be free, but putting it to work isn't!
Willie, Tampa Bay
kilimar

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Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #5 
This is my usage.  Last 12 months was 17,762 kW (48.66 kW daily).  The 12 months before that 19,049 kW (52.19 kW daily).  

 
10/6/171,71510/6/1729
9/7/171,7729/7/1730
8/8/171,6218/8/1729
7/10/171,9827/10/1732
6/8/171,6876/8/1730
5/9/171,5035/9/1732
4/7/171,0904/7/1729
3/9/171,1783/9/1729
2/8/171,5322/8/1730
1/9/171,0661/9/1732
12/8/161,16112/8/1631
11/7/161,45511/7/1632
10/6/161,56610/6/1628
9/8/161,8039/8/1630
8/9/162,1628/9/1632
7/8/162,0837/8/1630
6/8/161,6866/8/1630
5/9/161,2525/9/1632
4/7/161,0724/7/1630
3/8/161,9343/8/1632
2/5/161,9892/5/1629
1/7/161,0981/7/1630
12/8/151,13512/8/1532
11/6/151,26911/6/1530
10/7/151,40810/7/1529
9/8/152,2689/8/1532
stmbtwle

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Reply with quote  #6 
You might find this of interest: http://pvwatts.nrel.gov

__________________
Solar is like the wind. It may be free, but putting it to work isn't!
Willie, Tampa Bay
kilimar

Registered:
Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stmbtwle
One of the things they never mention is that increase in rates above 1000 kwh/mo. Offsetting that saves you nearly 20% more than the lower rate, and of course the high rate is the first to go. Your array may save you more than you think. For heavy users it could make a big difference.


In my particular case, it is not too big of a difference.  The price for 0-1000 kWH is .1031 and >1000 kWH is .12726.  So for in a month that uses 1772 kWH, the difference between the two if it was a flat rate at the lower rate vs the 2-tier, is $19 per month.  With the fixed monthly service charge of $8.76, it's the difference between 0.1208292551 kWH and 0.1103035666 kWH.

Now, if I generated 80% of it by solar, I am buying 354 kWH at the lower tier plus the fixed service charge, I am now paying 0.130077833 kWH.  Although, I guess I one can argue that it doesn't how much electricity I'm buying, the service charge is fixed and shouldn't be part of the calculation.  


kilimar

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Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stmbtwle
You might find this of interest: http://pvwatts.nrel.gov


I actually did run through it. I also downloaded SAM (Solar Advisor Model) software.  Pretty detailed.  One of the things that I did not see/find are any financial variables for investment interest.  For example, instead of investing in the PV system, that same money could be invested in a mutual fund that is earning 5-8%.  So that is a financial loss and should be counted against the payback period.

Based on the SAM simulation, the payback is 12 years, not the 7-8 years when doing 'back of the napkin math' which is the same number (7-8 years) that came from the solar installer.
Rick H Parker

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Reply with quote  #9 

Here is a tool you could use, it is free. It is from the makers of PVwatts.  PV watts is included in SAM.

"The System Advisor Model (SAM) is a performance and financial model designed to facilitate decision making for people involved in the renewable energy industry:

SAM makes performance predictions and cost of energy estimates for grid-connected power projects based on installation and operating costs and system design parameters that you specify as inputs to the model. Projects can be either on the customer side of the utility meter, buying and selling electricity at retail rates, or on the utility side of the meter, selling electricity at a price negotiated through a power purchase agreement (PPA)."

Anybody wanting to develop Renewable Energy software ... it is Open source code.
Photovoltaic, Wind, Biomass, Geothermal, Solar water heating, Generic system, Concentrated Solar Power, Solar steam models included.

SAM's open source code is copyrighted by the Alliance for Sustainable Energy and licensed under a mixed MIT and GPLv3 license. It allows for-profit and not-for-profit organizations to develop and redistribute software based on SAM under terms of an MIT license and requires that research entities including national laboratories, colleges and universities, and non-profit organizations make the source code of any redistribution publicly available under terms of a GPLv3 license. .


__________________
Rick H Parker
Kansas, USA
Electronics Engineering Technologist
kilimar

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Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick H Parker
Here is a tool you could use, it is free. It is from the makers of PVwatts.  


Using the tool, I did find that two interesting things:

1) Panels without Power Optimizers (DC-DC converters @ each panel), mounted flat on my roof (240 degrees azimuth) vs panels mounted 180 degrees azimuth, the payback went from Year 12 down to Year 10.

2) Again, panels mounted 240 vs 180, but this time with Power Optimizers at each panel, the payback went from Year 11 down to Year 10.

New Additional Question: What is the cost to remove, store, and reinstall the PV system when it comes to 'reroof' asphalt shingles?
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