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mattie

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Reply with quote  #11 
Hello G_H
That's some food for thought,by internally cemented PVC angles do you mean make shuttering inside the cage and liner and pour concrete on the floor section and into the sides of the lower half using the PVC angles to cover the joins?
I also like the cover strips on butt joints idea.I wonder what the properties of the cage itself are and what is designed to withstand.
Regards Mattie

Garage_Hermit

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Reply with quote  #12 
Hi, Mattie,

Ought to have expressed myself better !

I meant, make the entire tank out of styro (XPS) board; then cement PVC channels over the corners (re-entrant angles), and PVC cover strips over any butt joints.  By cement, I meant PVC adhesive.

I guess that the steel cage is designed to withstand the pressure from 1-meter-deep water, that is,   14 psi + 14 psi per 11 meters = 15.4 psi approx. or 2220 lbs per square foot. I could not really see a designer over-designing it by more than, say, 50 percent (for reasons of expense), although this is just a guess...   I mean, they are not really made for heavy water...

cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water

Quote:
Heavy water is not radioactive. In its pure form, it has a density about 11% greater than water, but otherwise, is physically and chemically similar.


I found this...

http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-10708.html

Looks like then can be stacked 4-high...  And certainly 2 high - they just have to be nice and square, and secure...

G_H

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mattie

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Reply with quote  #13 
Hello Garage Hermit
Nice find on the link.Seems like the answer may be to leave the six sides of the cage intact so as to keep the support strength
Perhaps some bulkhead fittings and PVC piping on the top and bottom centers of the inner HDPE tanks would allow a join.
There is the option to join the outlets,all though i do not know if flipping the cage upside down will allow it to remain as strong as there will no longer be the pallet type support on the bottom of the cage.
Regards Mattie
Garage_Hermit

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Reply with quote  #14 
Hi, Mattie !

I guess that with a bit of effort, one could design a plumbed "manifold"  to join the various outlets and thus create a "unified storage" without altering the containers at all...

These numbers look interesting, but of course one cannot tell whether they are FULL or MT... (judging by the wiggly shadows, looks like the latter...).

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODE2WDYxMg==/z/P0gAAOxyF0pTfqp5/$_35.JPG

The problem with this approach is, would not make a very good thermal store, since it would defeat the notion of stratification (instead, you would get individual stratification in each container...)..

Otherwise, I get what you mean about upending one tote on top of another.  That gives a maximum of two high.  You could then add a "reinforcement strap" etc. around the middle, to cater for any tendancy to "bulge".

The other difficulty would be to ensure correct joining of the walls at the mid-point.

One way around this, would be to build the entire styro tank in the bottom tote, then lower the top tote onto the assembly, then assemble the two cages together with a central belt etc.

Sounds like a lot of effort, just to obtain double the volume !

G_H
 

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stmbtwle

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Reply with quote  #15 
A manifold between the totes might work, but it would increase the pressure in the bottom totes.  They MIGHT need to be reinforced.
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mattie

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Reply with quote  #16 
Hello all.
Thanks for the heads up G_H messing with the stratification is far from ideal.I also see what you mean by making it too much effort in the build.
Straps on the bottom IBC may be a simple solution to the increased pressure stmbtwle,Which points back again to removing a side on top and bottom on both IBC's.
I spotted these while browsing http://www.goodpack.com/mb5.php not sure where to source yet or costs.I suppose what i was trying to achieve with the IBC idea is the notion of almost pre built walls for a tank in the form of a cage.
Something else that sprang to mind is using scafolding to make the frame, this  be strong enough on downwards forces and laterally with diagonal braces used. The legs etc could be cut to adjust the frame size.
scaffolding.jpeg 
The internal tank walls could be made from XPS ,just a thought anyway.
Thanks all for the input
Regards Mattie
Garage_Hermit

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Reply with quote  #17 
wow, Mattie, now THERE is an idea !

Checked out the price of that tower, locally, it is 999 Euros = 1350 USD.

What I don't like, is the BIG OPEN bay on the long side ! (the wall pressures would be unequal)


Rather, SIX or 8 of THESE would work out far cheaper...
[image]
At 35 Euros each, TEN would set U back 350 Euros = 470 USD.

They are 8 foot tall.

G_H

P.S.

Er, just in case anybody is wondering,
  • reinforced concrete cast pipes
  • are about 400 USD per linear meter !
  • and a CAP will set you back *600 USD*
  • "somewhat prohibitive"
http://www.concastpipe.com/pricing/cc-2014-price-list.pdf

==> Interesting tank HERE at 54-second marker...

Could mebbe be stood VERTICAL ?




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mattie

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Reply with quote  #18 
Hello G_H
That septic tank idea looks a good one once it will allow vertical positioning.Regarding the scaffolding idea, i was using that image as a setup possibility, scaffolding or indeed a septic tank could be sourced second hand for much lower initial costs.
Regards Mattie
mattie

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Reply with quote  #19 
Hello all
For the scaffolding idea i was thinking transoms
kwikstage_transom.jpg 

These are normally 4 ft lengths along with uprights which are 8 ft or 9ft.So a 4 x 4 x 9 h frame.
captive_connections_on_scaffold_components.jpg 
Any additional support for the walls could be done using ratchet straps much like those used on a boat to make it secure on a trailer.Inside the scaffolding the walls of the tank would be marine ply,xps and the pond liner.
Scaffolding feet could be used and adjusted to get the tank level before its filled with water of course.
Regards Mattie




cwwilson721

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Reply with quote  #20 
Personally, I don't think I'd need more than 275 gallons, myself.

The major advantage of the tote/container is that you can wrap the heck out of it with whatever insulation you want, and poke holes in the top to insert various length piping to get the temp layer you need to access. The plastic makes it easier to reseal those holes, too.

Since I use external heat exchangers for my collector/storage interface, it's almost perfect. Collector fluid w/antifreeze goes thru the plate heat exchanger, and the potable water gets heated and back into the tank. Then the various uses are plumbed from there (DHW pre-heat, and hydronic systems w/pex), with returns/etc.

Makes it a bit easier for me.

Then again, living in AL, my heating needs are much more modest, and the preheating the DHW input is also. Actually, I need to temper the output so it doesn't get too hot.

If I need more than one tote, I could pull the temp I need off the first, to the second, and so on, using the various depth pipes.
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